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Latest PvT Guide by Salv
Author: Salvatore321
For money maps: No
Difficulty: Intermediate
Comments: 13 (Watch for comments!, Add to favorites)
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PvT Guide By Salv
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PvT is about pulling off your early game build successfully, so that you have a strong midgame. If you can avoid losing units early on, having probes killed off or being contained, your in a good position for later. PvT is also all about macro, it's never good if your outmacroed by the Terran because his ground units, even used half-assedly, can usually beat yours evenly... that's bad. Protoss doesn't have a lot to do however, besides macroing hard, while the Terran has a lot to do so he can use his units to his full advantage. The purpose of this guide therefore, is to show you how to get yourself into midgame, without being behind in any way.

The build order: Goon only

1 ) 8/9 Pylon
10/17 Gateway
12/17 Assimilator
13/17 / 14/17 Cybercore*
15/17 pylon
Goon + Range when cybercore finishes

*Some people at 13supply decide to delay their probe a bit to put the core up at 13. I don't think it makes much of a difference and I always have made my cybercore at 14supply.

The build order: Zealot -> Goon

2 )8/9 Pylon
10/17 Gateway
12/17 Assimilator
13/17 Pylon
Zealot than cybercore and play as usual

Most important thing I can suggest is that you do 1gate cybercore, get range and make goons, and than make a robotics facility before your second gateway. Than add the second gateway and pump as usual. If you try to make two gates and pump goons off that, you won't have enough gas to make a robo for awhile, and you'll be short on obs. I like to see what the Terran is doing ASAP, so I suggest doing this. Fast robo, fast obs.

EDIT: Thanks to Lammas, I wasn't going to put this in originally because I thought it was maybe too situational and self explanatory, but he has changed my mind :D. 1Gate Robo is a great build if you have quite a bit of distance between opponents, or you have a ramp. (but even than, extremely close positions would warrant 2gate) Anyways, on a map like Longinus or Tau Cross, unless your feeling ballsy, you should probably do 2gateways than a robotics to obs because you won't have a terrain advantage if he were to attack, or anything to retreat back to. The map is situational to what you choose, but keep this in mind.

The only time I would do a zealot to goon build is if I know the Terran isn't going to wall, if it's a map with no ramp (but even than it's possible to wall, so watch out) or if it's a two player map sometimes. Good Terrans will deal with a zealot with no problem, but the whole point of it is a little bit of scouting, as well as maybe getting a unit or two. The most important thing is that you don't let it die. Kill anything, an SCV or a marine and than leave. If you haven't sustained more than some shield damage, that's good, the shield will recharge and he'll have that one less unit. It's no big deal and it's not going to win you games, but it's a slight edge for you.

What to look for in the Terran base:

I'm not going to pretend I know everything the Terran can do, or even most of it, it's not possible to be totally prepared for anything, and a lot of the time you are going to see something coming at you that you weren't expecting and you need to know how to deal with it. Point is, if you played safe enough to prepare for absolutely everything, you'd be dead regardless. Most Terrans play standard and want to play a macro game and just go 1factory CC. The most common rush they will do is a FD rush.

FD Rush - It usually involes 5-6 marines, a tank, vulture with mines and maybe an SCV or two. It's a fake rush that allows them to plant mines to prevent you from attacking right away with your goons (unless you did sickeningly fast observers) and he'll lay down his CC right at his natural instead of floating it over. You'll have enough units to kill this 99% of the time, the only thing I can see someone actually losing to this is if you run some goons right into some mines or your goons get stuck or some odd thing like that. Goon production off gates is enough to beat this.

2Fact build - A 2Fact build is really oldschool and requires more micro than anything, something a lot of Terrans don't really have and these builds are countered easily by a lot of things. So much so that I wouldn't ever expect a 2Fact build from anything except maybe a guy who is playing his offrace or something. I'm not really sure the exact units but it's basically a much stronger, but later FD rush. They try to lay mines at your goons and when you run them back, it's free hits for tanks/marines. This build will kill you if you don't see it, but the reason people don't do it is because if the Protoss went Reavers or Dark Templars, it's dead and them too probably. So even though I don't do either of those often, the Terran doesn't know that unless they know me, hence, they usually won't do this build.
However, if they do use it. Scouting is important to see whether or not they are doing this. The build I'm going to suggest you use will get out fast observers to see a build this like before he is attacking. So if you see this, you simply add a third gateway immediately, add a pylon so you don't get stuck on supply and just macro hard. Depending on how strong it looks, move out your units to about halfway to his base and get ready to goon micro. Micro back while attacking and try to hit stray units. Don't let goons die however and if you are taking too many hits just run back. Your expansion is usually done/ just finishing by the time he is nearing your base and if you don't think your goons will hold his attack, bring 12 probes to attack too. It sucks that your going to lose some probes, but his expansion was delayed and yours will be up and you won't be dead, so it's worth it.

M&M Rush - Pretty powerful if you don't see it coming. Fortunately, you should. Either your fast obs, or your going to sense it when attacking with 1-2 goons early on just to gain some intel. If he has like 5-6 marines and his barracks is still active, or if you spot a medic or you see a second barracks etc. You know it's coming. Usually I scout the 2nd barracks with my fast obbies that I send to his base and than i react. Add a pylon at your naturals choke and add a forge in your base. Keep making units as usual and add cannons as necessary. Cannons rape the shit out of marines and medics so badly that it's ridiculous. Rush over and most likely game over for him too.

Other builds - There are a lot of builds like Starport -> Drop or 3Fact vultures, but these builds are so uncommon that I'm not going to write specifics for them. The only one you need to be aware of is a vulture rush, which you can scout early on with your observer, or a probe. Best counter is simply make 2-3 pylons at your natural choke in a line so that your choke is now really small and clog it up with your goons + an observer. Just micro out his vults, which can't surround you now and he is pretty much fucked.

What you should be doing after scouting him and reacting accordingly:

Assuming you didn't destroy an all-in type of build (3Fact vult or usually M&M, in which case you just expand again and mass up like a mofo because your going to run over him) your now in early-midgame with your expansion being made. I like to make my expansion at around 4 dragoons. It's pretty safe, but not too late either. Now you should have scouted him enough by now to know what hes doing. If he isn't fast expoing than he has either made his move already, or is about to and than just refer to what I wrote above this. So he has his expansion up now and yours is just warping in or is done. You can choose now to either 2base power or 3base econ.

2base power: 2base power is risky, but can crush a Terran who doesn't scout well. Basically, after your expansion is up, you just add gateways so you have about 6-7, keep probe production up and get citadel + shuttle. Put 4zealots int he shuttle, upgrade speed and just mass up huge. When the Terran moves out at 90-110 supply for his first push, you should have the units to absolutely steamroll him and either end the game right there, or just back off now and double expand and work on a tech choice like Arbiter or Carrier. The problem with 2base power is that if a Terran scouts that you don't have a third base somewhere, he isn't going to push you anymore, he knows this is what your doing. What he will do, is wait until 110-120 supply, than slow push out to a safe expansion and take that. Than your going to either attack, lose most of your units and be dead, or expand yourself, and be behind. It is possible to kill the slow push with your army, but it's not likely, and good Terrans make a lot of turrets which stops you from seeing when or where is the best place to attack.

3base econ: 3base econ is the build that 90% of the protosses use, mostly because it's safe as long as you know what your doing. You can either be ballsy and save up 400 more minerals right after you have started to warp in your natural and than place another nex at a third base, or you can wait until your natural is done, maynard probes, than add the 3rd base. Depending on how aggressive the Terran is, sometimes they can be a real bitch in preventing you in getting your 3rd base up by using vultures, there isn't anything to do about this, it will delay your expansion a bit and hes a bit ahead... for the moment.
The purpose of 3base econ is that when your 3rd base does finally kick in, your going to have the power to mass off 9 gateways. Until than, you can mass off 3-4, than 6, than eventually 9. Terrans know this and will push you at 90-110 supply in an attempt to kill you before your economy kicks in, this is the timing push.

I'd recommend you do a 3base econ build because it depends on what YOU do as a player, not when THEY do as an enemy. I never think it's a good idea to do a build that relys on your opponent playing a certain way.

The timing push WILL kill you if you just waiting for him to siege and mine outside your base and than you attack. Your going to lose all your units, he'll reinforce, than your done. There are two ways to counter this: Harass and expo or Pressure and expo. One thing to note that is extremely important is that you make a shuttle and 4 slow zealots. This shuttle is key to killing pushes. Also, make your citadel after your 3rd base nexus is started.

Harass and expo: To do this, after your natural is up, you tech to either Dark Templars or reavers and use them to harass the Terran. It usually doesn't matter what you do with them, as the purpose is to keep the Terran occupied. I've yet to meet a terran who pushes me while Im harassing, especially with a reaver. They will usually make more turrets (as your flying in their base constantly) and siege tanks in key positions. While your doing this, you take the 3rd base and add some gates so you have about 6 and than start to mass, eventually when your bases are fairly saturated, you add 3 more gates so you have 9. The key to this is to not lose the units. If the reaver dies, he going to push you right after and than your usually dead. Especially with reavers or DT, just remember your keeping him busy, so don't do any crazy shit like suicide your shuttle so you can drop the reaver in his mineral line.

Delay and expo: This takes more finesse than anything. When you expand, just assume hes a good player and move most of your goons out (all you should have while your third base is warping in or just finished is goons + observers + shuttle w/4 zeals) to outside his base. When he pushes you, you want to attack, and make him siege his tanks, when he sieges, run away. You make take a couple hits, but than he has to unsiege, and move a bit more, keep it about and this is called making his siege. This will take him a long time to get to your base, while this is happening, your making probes at your bases, adding gateways and massing up. As mentioned before, your citadel should be done and speed zealot should be upgrading. As he gets closer to your base, just try to flank him as best as possible and use the shuttle to FULL effect. Full effect meaning, attack with the units, try to get your speedlots to the tanks and all the while, drop your zealots from the shuttles on top of the tanks. If all is done right, you should kill his units and have some to spare or if something screws up, he should have just a few units more which you can mop up asap with reinforcements.

It's important to note that you DON'T make a forge or cannons until after this pivotal point in the game. Do anything but make cannons at expansions. Put 3goons + an observer at your third base, and use pylon walls to stop vultures. Good Terrans know that each cannon+forge you make is a gateway you don't have. It takes a while to get used to, and if he is committing a lot of vultures to harassing, than you can make cannons because he is wasting his units too. Point being, don't make cannons to counter what he MIGHT do (vult harass) make them if he starts to.

Now none of this might happen and he may just turtle a third base and let you not worry about a push. It's not that often, but on maps with a 3rd base with a gas like Tau Cross, they do this 90% of the time. Anyways, if this happens, it doesn't matter whether you killed a push or if he just turtled a third, the answer to both is to take a 4th base and than look for higher tech: Carriers or Arbiters.

Carriers: Carriers in large numbers are far more effective than Arbiters, but they are harder to use effectively, getting those large numbers can be harder and one mistake (sending carriers into an open area and than being surprised by golaiths. -5 carriers for you) can cost you a lot. However, if you can use them well, they own. They cost a lot more than arbiters, and I would suggest making them if you have your 4th base or 5th base completed and it's a map where they would deal really well (a lot of cliffs, rivers/water or any area where it would be hard for goliaths to hit them easily. Important thing to remember is to make a second cybercore and the second you think about making Carriers, start +1 weapons. I cannot stress how important that is, your carriers will do only 2 not upgraded vs a fully upgraded golaith, and will get raped a while lot faster too. Upgrades are key.


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Other Submissions:
1 Terran vs Protoss - 2Fact rush: By Salv (Strategies)
2 Breaking Terran Push: by Salv (Strategies)
3 PvZ revised PART 1 By Salv (Strategies)
4 Protoss versus Terran: Double expanding! By Salv (Strategies)
5 PvZ by Salvatore321 (Strategies)
6 Protoss vs Protoss - Salvatore321 (Strategies)

1, Superiorwolf
Date: Jan 03, 2008
Time: 08:32 AM
 
Also when going carriers, usually you will be cutting on ground troops so be careful of that (should be obvious anyways though lol)

Good guide, Exceptional.

2, Ahzz (Section Moderator)
Date: Jan 03, 2008
Time: 09:49 AM
 
nice

3, kirbythegod
Date: Jan 03, 2008
Time: 05:40 PM
 
nice stuff man ownceptional.

4, vezer917
Date: Jan 04, 2008
Time: 01:46 PM
 
Socrates once said.. "By attaining knowledge, man aquires the ability and freedom to shape his destiny -and obtain a lower interest rate on a home mortgage."

Exceptional.

5, lammas (Section Moderator)
Date: Jan 04, 2008
Time: 10:06 PM
 
A wise man once said: "The more I read Socrates the less it surprises me that the greeks killed him."

very nice salv couldnt write any better myself.

(but you could mention that on no ramp map 1gate robo is a nono cause fdterran - that is coming 100% sure - will crack it unless you have most strong goon micro.)



6, SilverCrusader
Date: Jan 05, 2008
Time: 03:36 AM
 
Now I'll understand a PvT match better.

7, Salvatore321
Date: Jan 05, 2008
Time: 03:48 AM
 
Thanks Lammas, when I was writing the guide I wasn't sure whether to include that or not. I couldn't decide whether it was too situational. Ofcourse if I were to try to explain all the situations, this guide would be incredibly long.

After reading your post though, and seeing as how Longinus/ Tau Cross style maps are quite popular, it's necessary to include that.

8, Murkyith14
Date: Jan 07, 2008
Time: 05:51 AM
 
So.. on maps like Longinus, you would want to go 2gates and delay the robo a bit?

9, Ahzz (Section Moderator)
Date: Jan 07, 2008
Time: 06:32 AM
 
yes that is correct. If you micro a bit you will be fine from vulture attacks etc. untill you get obs. But in any case, on those maps 2 gate dragoon is needed before robo

10, Murkyith14
Date: Jan 07, 2008
Time: 06:38 AM
 
I see. Thanks

11, lammas (Section Moderator)
Date: Jan 07, 2008
Time: 05:52 PM
 
on those maps I personally dont want robo before expansion cause there isnt any use for it anyways (at least usualy). Tho you can do 2gate robo then double exp just as well.

12, slayedman
Date: Jan 20, 2008
Time: 01:55 AM
 
This is horrible! what do you mean its good!?!?!?!??!?!?!?

-sike!
-exceptional

13, eraye1
Date: May 11, 2008
Time: 11:30 AM
 
I like it.

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