TvP
Author: lammas
For money maps: No
Difficulty: Intermediate
Comments: 23 (Watch for comments!, Add to favorites)
Views: 5314
TvP
This strategy, inspired by total lack of anything to do, will go throught allmost all build orders against toss. If you are any better/good/decent player you wont learn anything new, iam just gathering buildorders and tactics under one post. Hopefully my english is understandable. =o
When choosing to go either early attack or not you should think if you are better with macro ort with micro. If you have gosu micro some fast attack might be good idea but if you like more macro, like i do, fast expand is a bit better idea.
Tips:
-allways get 2 armorys for upgrade.
-haras if you just you just are fast enought for it.
-unless you are 100% sure that toss has very small army dont attack without push
-scan all the time to make sure that you wont be surprised with 12 carry
-avoid situation when you have half map and toss has other half; if toss has time to think he will understand that when he gets enought statis, strom sand carrys you wont be able to really attack; he will also be able to harash you with carry all the time.
-never ever make limit with pure vulture tank. allways have at least 12 gols.
-use emp too
Early attacks:
GUNDAM/BAMBOO RUSH
9 suply
10/11 rax
13 gas
some marines
18 factory
20 second factory
addon to first fac as soon as possible
tank and mine tech from 1st fac vulture from second
while doing this you can wall if you feel like it, if you do toss might miss the fact that you are doing gundam but if he sees 4 rines its quite obius that you are going something quick. When you have vultu, tank, and rines take 3 scvs with you and attack to toss base. when you have pushed to his mineral only exp dont try to go any further just build a bunk. Get siege and ebay and go on as you like.
toss counters:
Fast dt. Pretty much gg. if you are lucky do gosu mine placements and if he doesnt have robo coming there is a small chance that with über macro you can get to allmost even economics.
3gate goon. Quite gg again.
VULTURE HARASMENT:
9 suply
10 rax
12 gas
(marine)
16 fac
18 fac
2 addons
tank
mine and speed for vults
6 vultures
exp
With this you can get early map control for a very short time, but usually enought to get you an exp before he get his own. First targe is getting into his base and if you do toss could as well leave. If his ramp is blocked by goons mine his natural expansion and put all mines around the map.
toss counters:
2gate robo best thing that can happen. youll get exp a bit early and toss is in prolems.
1gate robo exp
in this case he will have exp coming before you can mine to block it. if you dont get to his main try to do double expansion. (so that you make exp after 2 tanks and second after ebay and 3 more tanks.
1gate robo reaver.
perhaps the worst case scenario. there are good chanced that youll lose 50% of your scvs. if you are lucky enought to get this scouted before he has dropped that rvr do 4 tanks and ebay.
NO IDEA OF ACTUAL NAME BUT WHATEVER
gundam build but instead of vultures do 3 tanks and then mine+speed. then attack with 3 tank 4 rine 3 scv and 2 vulture. Requires good very good micro management from you and bad micro from your opponent. If you want to see how to really do this download some games of Ex vs. Arcneon showmatch. This can be turned into fast push and its sometimes possible to kill his exp with this. Most oftenly you can open way for vulture harasment and expand while he is dealing with vulture micro.
toss counters:
2gate robo
worst case scenario if he makes enought goons before robo you will be over macroed and he will get exp too early for you.
fast dt
quite gg
1gate robo reaver
very bad for you. he can usually rape your rush units and get exp.
M&M
9 suply
10 rax
12 rax
19 gas
academy when you feel like it
medics
when you get 2-4 medics go and attack. most oftenly you will be stopped at his ramp but this works sometimes. To see this is in action download some replays of Hellghost.
for example: http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays.php?id=2279
toss counters:
1gate robo reaver
usually you cant do anydamage to his base and youll lose your m&m team. However i you see robotics support bay (if he does this you will be able to get up his ramp) split your marines so that one rvr hit only kills one and go for the reaver. its very much possible that you can kill it.
2gate goon robo
you wont get up his ramp and you will also lose map control after a few minutes. Basic thing to do is tech to tank and exp. Usually you cant win after this.
gate robo gate
you wont móst likely get up his ramp and everything will go as with 2gate goon robo.
fast Dt
g9 again.
THEMARINES CRAZY BASE PUSH.
This style only works on lt on 9/6 positions. Make 2 fact and stargate. Get siege and drop tank between your base and his. make turrets for air cover. When you have some tank for support start dropping his base so that those tank can cover you. I have never tried this and only once seen replay of this so i cant say much about counters or build order. Anyway this is really nice style ^_^
2TANK DROPPING.
9 suply
11 rax
12 gas
16 fac
when fac is done starport
addon+siege tech
tank
ebay/academy for scan.
addon for starport
suplys when needed of course
2nd tank and dropship
This tactic allow you very early harasment thought nowadays all toss players are ready for this and have 3 goons in their mineral line. You can either drop despite of the fact that youll lose tanks for sure and shoot some probes. You can also drop his cliff and force him to make shuttle before exp so that you can exp a bit earlier than him.
If you scout he has done exp to other of two unused starting positions make exp 2 drop ships with 4 tanks and 8 vulture+speed and mine. drop 4 tanks to the ramp of his exp and ran 8 vultures there too to help tanks. Tos wont be able to take it back with out losing too much units or with massive drop. note that you can do this also if you havent open with fast drop.
toss counters:
1gate robo shuttle
worst case scenario. it might be that he get obs to see your port before the drop and even if he doesnt he will most likely def it. He can do double expand early and there pretty much nothing you can do about it.
2gate robo
best thing to happen for you. You get exp early enought and you will be able to do haras all the time.
Not so aggressive styles:
FAST EXPAND.
My personal favourite <3.
9 suply
11 rax
12 gas
(marine)
fac
addon
tank
expansion inside you base, float it to the exp when its ready.
tank
siege
ebay
fac
This is very nice and flexcible open for tvp. You can later on turn this into fast push by massing tanks vultures and factorys up to 8, harasment by doing starport after 2nd factory.
Toss counters:
Dt drop
very difficult to kill with for f e terran but if you have placed turrets right possible sometimes.
Reaver drop
same as with dt drop. Anyways one tank in minerals will slow his reaver enought for you to get more tanks to help and scvs to save.
Toss f e.
Will give toss as much units as you have. If you scout this dont try early pushing but go for second exp ( or why not for haras)¨
Double exp.
Usually you cant kill him with fast push. Harasment or second exp is good counter for this so the same as with toss f e.
FAKE GUNDAM
9 suply
11 rax
13 gas
marines
18 fac
addon
mines+tank
exp
siege
ebay
attack with 3 scv 4 rine tank and vulture. When you have driven his goons out of your ramp you can attack his base in wich case all of those rushing units will die but sometimes you can slow his exp enought. You can also mine way to your exp put up bunker and exp and start macroing.
Toss counters:
Dt drop
you should have enought time to put mines into your main and def it with vultures and turret.
Fast dt
if you smell something cheesy coming from toss make ebay before exp. if you do you can usually get turret before this rush. If you do exp before turret he will most likely get to your main and gg.
3gate goon
with this he will lock you into your main for some time, but wont allways gain much adventage. Train scvs with your exp cc all the time and get siege up then just push untill you can safely land your exp.
2gate goon robo
you should have exp before him or same time not giving him chance to break your def.
This strategy, inspired by total lack of anything to do, will go throught allmost all build orders against toss. If you are any better/good/decent player you wont learn anything new, iam just gathering buildorders and tactics under one post. Hopefully my english is understandable. =o
When choosing to go either early attack or not you should think if you are better with macro ort with micro. If you have gosu micro some fast attack might be good idea but if you like more macro, like i do, fast expand is a bit better idea.
Tips:
-allways get 2 armorys for upgrade.
-haras if you just you just are fast enought for it.
-unless you are 100% sure that toss has very small army dont attack without push
-scan all the time to make sure that you wont be surprised with 12 carry
-avoid situation when you have half map and toss has other half; if toss has time to think he will understand that when he gets enought statis, strom sand carrys you wont be able to really attack; he will also be able to harash you with carry all the time.
-never ever make limit with pure vulture tank. allways have at least 12 gols.
-use emp too
Early attacks:
GUNDAM/BAMBOO RUSH
9 suply
10/11 rax
13 gas
some marines
18 factory
20 second factory
addon to first fac as soon as possible
tank and mine tech from 1st fac vulture from second
while doing this you can wall if you feel like it, if you do toss might miss the fact that you are doing gundam but if he sees 4 rines its quite obius that you are going something quick. When you have vultu, tank, and rines take 3 scvs with you and attack to toss base. when you have pushed to his mineral only exp dont try to go any further just build a bunk. Get siege and ebay and go on as you like.
toss counters:
Fast dt. Pretty much gg. if you are lucky do gosu mine placements and if he doesnt have robo coming there is a small chance that with über macro you can get to allmost even economics.
3gate goon. Quite gg again.
VULTURE HARASMENT:
9 suply
10 rax
12 gas
(marine)
16 fac
18 fac
2 addons
tank
mine and speed for vults
6 vultures
exp
With this you can get early map control for a very short time, but usually enought to get you an exp before he get his own. First targe is getting into his base and if you do toss could as well leave. If his ramp is blocked by goons mine his natural expansion and put all mines around the map.
toss counters:
2gate robo best thing that can happen. youll get exp a bit early and toss is in prolems.
1gate robo exp
in this case he will have exp coming before you can mine to block it. if you dont get to his main try to do double expansion. (so that you make exp after 2 tanks and second after ebay and 3 more tanks.
1gate robo reaver.
perhaps the worst case scenario. there are good chanced that youll lose 50% of your scvs. if you are lucky enought to get this scouted before he has dropped that rvr do 4 tanks and ebay.
NO IDEA OF ACTUAL NAME BUT WHATEVER
gundam build but instead of vultures do 3 tanks and then mine+speed. then attack with 3 tank 4 rine 3 scv and 2 vulture. Requires good very good micro management from you and bad micro from your opponent. If you want to see how to really do this download some games of Ex vs. Arcneon showmatch. This can be turned into fast push and its sometimes possible to kill his exp with this. Most oftenly you can open way for vulture harasment and expand while he is dealing with vulture micro.
toss counters:
2gate robo
worst case scenario if he makes enought goons before robo you will be over macroed and he will get exp too early for you.
fast dt
quite gg
1gate robo reaver
very bad for you. he can usually rape your rush units and get exp.
M&M
9 suply
10 rax
12 rax
19 gas
academy when you feel like it
medics
when you get 2-4 medics go and attack. most oftenly you will be stopped at his ramp but this works sometimes. To see this is in action download some replays of Hellghost.
for example: http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays.php?id=2279
toss counters:
1gate robo reaver
usually you cant do anydamage to his base and youll lose your m&m team. However i you see robotics support bay (if he does this you will be able to get up his ramp) split your marines so that one rvr hit only kills one and go for the reaver. its very much possible that you can kill it.
2gate goon robo
you wont get up his ramp and you will also lose map control after a few minutes. Basic thing to do is tech to tank and exp. Usually you cant win after this.
gate robo gate
you wont móst likely get up his ramp and everything will go as with 2gate goon robo.
fast Dt
g9 again.
THEMARINES CRAZY BASE PUSH.
This style only works on lt on 9/6 positions. Make 2 fact and stargate. Get siege and drop tank between your base and his. make turrets for air cover. When you have some tank for support start dropping his base so that those tank can cover you. I have never tried this and only once seen replay of this so i cant say much about counters or build order. Anyway this is really nice style ^_^
2TANK DROPPING.
9 suply
11 rax
12 gas
16 fac
when fac is done starport
addon+siege tech
tank
ebay/academy for scan.
addon for starport
suplys when needed of course
2nd tank and dropship
This tactic allow you very early harasment thought nowadays all toss players are ready for this and have 3 goons in their mineral line. You can either drop despite of the fact that youll lose tanks for sure and shoot some probes. You can also drop his cliff and force him to make shuttle before exp so that you can exp a bit earlier than him.
If you scout he has done exp to other of two unused starting positions make exp 2 drop ships with 4 tanks and 8 vulture+speed and mine. drop 4 tanks to the ramp of his exp and ran 8 vultures there too to help tanks. Tos wont be able to take it back with out losing too much units or with massive drop. note that you can do this also if you havent open with fast drop.
toss counters:
1gate robo shuttle
worst case scenario. it might be that he get obs to see your port before the drop and even if he doesnt he will most likely def it. He can do double expand early and there pretty much nothing you can do about it.
2gate robo
best thing to happen for you. You get exp early enought and you will be able to do haras all the time.
Not so aggressive styles:
FAST EXPAND.
My personal favourite <3.
9 suply
11 rax
12 gas
(marine)
fac
addon
tank
expansion inside you base, float it to the exp when its ready.
tank
siege
ebay
fac
This is very nice and flexcible open for tvp. You can later on turn this into fast push by massing tanks vultures and factorys up to 8, harasment by doing starport after 2nd factory.
Toss counters:
Dt drop
very difficult to kill with for f e terran but if you have placed turrets right possible sometimes.
Reaver drop
same as with dt drop. Anyways one tank in minerals will slow his reaver enought for you to get more tanks to help and scvs to save.
Toss f e.
Will give toss as much units as you have. If you scout this dont try early pushing but go for second exp ( or why not for haras)¨
Double exp.
Usually you cant kill him with fast push. Harasment or second exp is good counter for this so the same as with toss f e.
FAKE GUNDAM
9 suply
11 rax
13 gas
marines
18 fac
addon
mines+tank
exp
siege
ebay
attack with 3 scv 4 rine tank and vulture. When you have driven his goons out of your ramp you can attack his base in wich case all of those rushing units will die but sometimes you can slow his exp enought. You can also mine way to your exp put up bunker and exp and start macroing.
Toss counters:
Dt drop
you should have enought time to put mines into your main and def it with vultures and turret.
Fast dt
if you smell something cheesy coming from toss make ebay before exp. if you do you can usually get turret before this rush. If you do exp before turret he will most likely get to your main and gg.
3gate goon
with this he will lock you into your main for some time, but wont allways gain much adventage. Train scvs with your exp cc all the time and get siege up then just push untill you can safely land your exp.
2gate goon robo
you should have exp before him or same time not giving him chance to break your def.
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Out of 5 voters, most think this strategy is Good!
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Other Submissions: |
| 1, iamandragon | |||||||
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-allways get 2 armorys for upgrade. not really, one is enough. TvP mass is more important than upgrades -unless you are 100% sure that toss has very small army dont attack without push Push is old fashioned, you're out dated. -avoid situation when you have half map and toss has other half; if toss has time to think he will understand that when he gets enought statis, strom sand carrys you wont be able to really attack; he will also be able to harash you with carry all the time. That always happen to me but whenever I'm in such a situation the protoss never won... -never ever make limit with pure vulture tank. allways have at least 12 gols I agree with the first line, but not the second. Only get goliaths when you know they are having air units(i.e. carriers) Goliaths don't really excel that much at fighting land. -use emp too What a waste of micro, you won't have enough science vessels to support the EMP'ing, emp cost a lot and your science number will be capped at 2~3(they're not cheap) Bamboo rush is designed to destroy fast DT/fast reaver. For the 'no idea whatever it is' bit it's still a gundam, just a different variation Arg...not even gonna bother finish the post |
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| 2, GrimTerror | |||||||
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A good M&M attack usually works well as long as you have at least 3 or 4 firebats. As long as you can stim you can usually do quite a bit of damage. Zealots lose to Bat and Meds, Goons lose to Rines and Meds. Cannons can be a problem but you can usually handle around 3 or 4 if you have enough marines. Only problem with MMF attack is that if he gets quick High Temps or Reavers you're more or less dead. I want to see what Blanks makes of this before i vote. Grim... |
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| 3, lammas (Section Moderator) | |||||||
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allways get 2 armorys for upgrade. not really, one is enough. TvP mass is more important than upgrades o really? why is that? -unless you are 100% sure that toss has very small army dont attack without push Push is old fashioned, you're out dated. right. but note taht without push youll easyly lose limit army to toss 160/200 if he uses storms. i didnt say that attacking without push wouldnt be good ide but only if you really know you will win. Bamboo rush is designed to destroy fast DT/fast reaver. no bamboo rush is designed to destroy f e and contain toss. no way to get him rushed before he has 2dt and you wont have detection. -avoid situation when you have half map and toss has other half; if toss has time to think he will understand that when he gets enought statis, strom sand carrys you wont be able to really attack; he will also be able to harash you with carry all the time. That always happen to me but whenever I'm in such a situation the protoss never won... good for u, it happens to me quite often too. but how often has your opponent done statis field and massive storming? and how often have you won if he has done that? -never ever make limit with pure vulture tank. allways have at least 12 gols I agree with the first line, but not the second. Only get goliaths when you know they are having air units(i.e. carriers) Goliaths don't really excel that much at fighting land. how can you be sure? one hidden stargate can be hidden and just 3 carrys can make you loose. -use emp too What a waste of micro, you won't have enough science vessels to support the EMP'ing, emp cost a lot and your science number will be capped at 2~3(they're not cheap) Waste of micro to half protss units hitpoint and take down storms and possible arbiters? k For the 'no idea whatever it is' bit it's still a gundam, just a different variation much possible but its not called gundam -_- |
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| 4, IxionsRevenge | |||||||
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first of all... any strong late game attack with terran uses tanks, and since they are immobile you tend to leap frog them in seige mode. So it's really a push, you're just trying to do it as fast as you can. Secondly, yes sci vessels and emp is very valuable in a TvP. Also if you have been keeping pressure on your opponent the whole game and they are to the point of resorting to carriers, then chances are they have cut back on their ground forces, freeing up your ability to make gols and/or wraiths... Wraiths tend to work better when pursuing carriers so long as you have already scanned and taken out detectors. Where as gols keep them from moving in on you. Carriers are usually a bad move for Protoss since the time and resources to tech and build enough of them to be effective usually leaves you weak on the ground, and as such are usually a last attempt to go over a strong push that uses plenty of tanks. Since they are expensive, slow moving, and valnerable most skilled players dont like to use them unless they have been throughly scorched on the ground. The point is, that carriers by themselves and in small numbers are nothing but a desperation move by a losing Protoss player. If you have both been passive throughout the game and have split the map 50/50, you havent really been doing your job as Terran very well, and are in fact losing. Since you have left your opponent protoss alone and have given them plenty of resources to change up strategies, i would say that you've done something long before you see the first carriers, to have constituted already having lost the match. -Ixion |
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| 5, iamandragon | |||||||
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Hard to explain...what you guys know are tank push...however an year or two ago the terran's got a new method of fighting protoss...I dunno what's it called in english but we call it dynamic. This strategy is invented on Luna, a rather arguable map. To those who're not too familiar of Luna, it's a 4 player map with each player on the edge near the corners, and your natural has two entrance protecting your main--nothing abnormal. The part that raised many confusion is the middle of the map, where turret building is impossible due to the special landscape. Many terrans complained about that map until korean gamer iloveoov used this strategy. It involves getting double expansion asap with terran, and turtling with loads of harass to delay protoss, and charge out when population has reached app. 120 with tanks and few vulture support. Because terran cease to expand/tech after dropship, their mass can grow in a very rapid rate. By attacking at the right moment(i.e. when toss is expanding/teching carriers) terran would have army advantage over protoss, and a BIG advantage it is. The weakness of this strategy is that it costs more micro than usual(and when I say more I mean MUCH more) My reason for not having 2 armorys for upgrades: I dont actaully mean do not get it, but since TvP does not have upgrades that can change the tide like other match up TvZ PvZ where one single upgrade can change the whole outcome of the battle field, mass would be more important. An extra +5 damage on the tanks won't make too much of a difference if you compare it to the extra +1 armor for TvZ marine vs lurkers or +1 attack PvZ zealots vs zerglings. I do admit the upgrades can do a lot of good, but only the attack counter part is important. Terran's primary objective against protoss army is to stop them from getting close, not taking more hits. Weapon upgrades and mass is what really helps there. The rest...leave it to micro. PvT P always need more resource than T so if we got 50/50 of the map then there's a high chance where T will win. 30 factories all pumping tanks is not a joke to protoss, it's a nightmare. Take LT for example. There are 14 resource nodes. Say each of us have 5 of them.(unless you're like NTT the first 3 would be deplated by now) 5 resource node for terran means 15 factory pumping tanks. for protoss, 20 gateways. Protoss only get 25% extra compared terran army, which is barely enough to defeat them with perfect micro. When I say 15 factory I am also assuming terran is not producing at max considering terran should be tired after 30 minutes of intense gaming. Even the protoss player now is good as fresh and 100% inefficient, there still is a chance that they loose. If we take into fact that both players have similar skill, it would be 15 factory VS 15 gateway which = gg to protoss. TvP means stop protoss from having more expansion than you and by taking over half the map you've done the job pretty well. wow shit I typed so much...I leave the rest to tomorrow. |
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| 6, AnTraDoX | |||||||
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dunno if this just me but i havent seen any ghosts and lockdown mentioned meds too with optical flare coz if your opponent is a full-on carrier masser, then blinding them all and reducing their sight range by 1 makes a difference and so does lockdown of course. then get cloaked wraiths ready and there you go...a cheap way to kill carrier masses. agree with the fact that toss shouldnt be given half screen then terran other half, coz in an economic boom it'll favor toss and zerg but not so much on terran. by right you should try minimizing their expos though hard to do but worth it in late game. once terran get tanks bats, meds, rines and toss still in their basic tier units(usually are), they're stuffed!! |
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| 7, iamandragon | |||||||
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Erm...sure a toss would bring a couple observers with their carriers...Lockdown is good, though Why in an economic boom it won't favour terran? It favours terran like mad! Unlike protoss whoose power rises discretely on their expo count(3,5,7) terran power rises constantly as time passes, and it is commonly agreed that a terran with a 200 population army is INVINCIBLE! If you let terran max their army, it's basically doom for you. I was in this situation where toss got 4 bases while I have 2, but I turtled and maxed my pop and charged out--NOTHING he had can stop my army. I don't even need to lay a single spider mine! |
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| 8, AnTraDoX | |||||||
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yeah, well similar to the other races, an economic boom favours anyone, except i think that it favours Zerg and Toss (Toss esp)more than it favours terran. You' let anyone max out its doom too anyway. Protoss is a (oh my goodness how many times have i said this, maybe i should think of another way to say this) superior race ie. they beat their opponents by overwhelming them in terms of speed,strength and powerful spells, ya they have the most powerful spells in the game, and also they have more variety of units each doing different stuff, so unless some WICKED micro is happening then it GG for Terranif not for me anyway. BUt, i know i'll try not letting anyone max out, if it seems they're not doing anything at all, then i'd rather attack them first before they do horrible things to me |
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| 9, GluCose | |||||||
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I'd just use one armory, upgrade armor first. | ||||||
| 10, iamandragon | |||||||
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Why armor first, may I ask? To antradox: Since when terran micro is not WICKED? =P |
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| 11, GluCose | |||||||
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You know, I don't have a real reason why armor first, that's just the way I've always done it. Thought it would make more sense, units would last longer. Is that not the way to go? | ||||||
| 12, AnTraDoX | |||||||
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well i suppose it depends on the player for micro doesnt it.... yes terran micro is wicked, the pro- terrans have the fastest left hands on the keyboard/or was it the right hand on mouse dunno....Elky, SB etc prob. terran micros are the most wicked-est... btw, i wouldnt armor first for terran, maybe for zerg i would |
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| 13, aosskf | |||||||
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why do u guys name these strategies like bamboo/gundam rush and fake gundam and tank push or marine push kinda crap? its retarded. i cant understand these terms. dont listen to iamandragon, hes really stupid. |
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| 14, iamandragon | |||||||
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aosskf...oh my... I just can't stop laughing... First, we didn't make up these terms about gundam rush/tank push. If you dont know what these means, ask or research, don't say it's retarded, it only shows that you are the retarded. To your imformation bamboo rush and gundam rush are the same thing. It's invented by a player called V-gundam so we call it the gundam rush. His nickname is bamboo terran for the effort and determine on improving his rush so it's aka bamboo rush. A fake gundam is a player pretending to gundam rush just to scare a protoss so that they don't tech, allowing the terran to fast expo. Tank push is when you leap frog your sieged tanks. The term push is not a starcraft term, but instead a military term. |
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| 15, lammas (Section Moderator) | |||||||
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yeah but if you have seen iloveoovs never tvp games on luna he rarely kills anyone while 120 suply most often (at least if he is on the other side of the map like t on 11 and p on 5) he pushes until he is able to take his hald of the map and keeps going with old school push. (and by the way he allways gets 2 armory). Anyways that works sometimes but most often toss will be able to take 3rd expand and still have enought units to kill you. (and if you happen to be playing with korean übergosu he will have limit in 12 min, while you are still wondering about that 2nd exp) those upgrades are not really to give tanks extra hits. Point is that carryer hits 50% less and gets 300%more (iam not absolutely sure of that 300% i think i saw it on some thread on tl.net but cant find it now so it might be a bit less). Hitting 20 or 26 also does make a diffrence in vulture vs zealot battle. Those uppgrades are also good bacause this way toss wont have overhelming uppgrades even if he does massive upgrade too. Anyways some people like it with uprades, some dont. My point why to avoid 50/50 situations is that skilled protoss will get massive stasis field and massive storm. at this point his micro will be so overhelming that winning becomes more difficult than it would have been with fast push(specially if you dont want to waste you money to emp which is "a waste of micro, you won't have enough science vessels to support the EMP'ing, emp cost a lot and your science number will be capped at 2~3 they're not cheap"  . why do u guys name these strategies like bamboo/gundam rush and fake gundam and tank push or marine push kinda crap? its retarded. i cant understand these terms. i really dont do it like "hmm what would be nice name for this 4marine tank rush, hmmm... greindem? nah... grindim? no... hey how about gundam! jesh it sounds cool ill pick it" all those names have been used for 2-3 years and its a bit easyer to say: "nice gundam" than to say "hey nice rush with 2 factorys, 4 marine,vulture, mine, tank,scv" |
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| 16, Trizelda | |||||||
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Acually, Sometimes it is good to have more than 2 urpgrades iamandragon. Ok strtagie. Snow, if ur planing on posting DON'T! |
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| 17, iamandragon | |||||||
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It completely depends on the case. If upgrading once doesn't affact the game itself, don't. (e.g. upgrading weapons that causes a certain unit match up to finish the opposing one with 1 hit less is good, upgrading armor while it doesn't help you to survive one more blow is unconstructive and shouldn't have the minerals wasted on.) | ||||||
| 18, Trizelda | |||||||
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Acually I useally play 2 or more hour matches so I know wat I mean when I say Upgrade! You just play 20 min matches? Oh! And by the way. Im being so defenceing becouse you called me a 6-year old and didnt treat Zelda with respeat! Go back to where you posted that you moron. |
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| 19, iamandragon | |||||||
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20 minute matches are for intermediates. My matches occationally drag on for 40 minutes, but they shouldn't last that long. You find your opponent's weak point, crack it, and get on with. Why do you want a 2 hour game for no damn reason at all? Even if you and your opponent are evenly matched you shouldn't last that long. | ||||||
| 20, BattleGamr | |||||||
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If they bring in HT and Archons quick on a well known map; You can be crippled quickly and lose an exp due mainly to the fact they know the map well. Then again Vessels though expensive if have a couple wil come into play in this situation. the best counter would probably be vulcers and bats which tear at shields though micro can kill u. Though the science vessels are for this support task. |
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| 21, lammas (Section Moderator) | |||||||
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"20 minute matches are for intermediates" average game lenght on MBC league is like 18 min. |
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| 22, NastyApe | |||||||
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YES! LAMMAS IS HERE! (I didn't know) Srry, I've had a noob overdose the last week :rolleyes:' Great, extensive strat. I'm Z so I don't know much about this matchup, but you covered it well. Exp! |
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| 23, Slickrick | |||||||
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I thought it smelled like gosu in here Ive only skimed through it but I'll read it in its entirety after Im done with Maficus's strat. Oh and for the people who think they know what they are talking about and disagree with Lammy, shut up. Lammy know's what the hell hes talking about, so just listen. |
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